(Some) Men are from Mars

[happyshep]

In reference to male/male friendship or slash fics:

• "...This is the place where we can see love between equals -- something never completely available in the real world."
  
• "Not many of us know men who incorporate this ideal bonding into their relationships and that's what we want to see."
  
• "Relationship stories... often depend on the elements of telepathy and empathy as metaphors for the experience of closeness that women value so highly in their relationships."
  

Do you agree with the above quotes? They were written in the early 90s so perhaps they are outdated?
Within fanfiction there is a tendency to take interpretive liberties in order to create more ideal male characters, but why does this happen? What's wrong with men as they are?

[E Fish]

I don't write (or read) slash fics (I barely write romance at all), but I do write quite a few stories about friendship. When I write stories like that, I try to keep the participants in character, but because I tend toward angst and H/C fics, I'm often putting them in situations never seen on the show (NCIS in my case) and so I extrapolate what they'd do, how they'd react to a given situation, and it's not always ideal.

So...I can't comment so much on the romance side of things. I'm not a romantic person. I've never even been in love before (which is why I steer away from writing romances), but I don't really agree with the idea that men can't form bonding relationships "between equals" in the real world. I know plenty of men who do.

I do, however, agree that many ff writers completely change the characters to make them fit in a plot that would never work had their characters been acting anything like how they are portrayed on the screen.

[dchann]

I think that part of it is that the vast majority of fanfic writers are female, and thus have to take the "outsider's" view of what men are really like.

On top of that, we women (often because of personal experience, lol) want men to open up and communicate more...to say what's on their minds, as women are more apt to do. To share their feelings, as it were.

The hurt/comfort subgenre gives writers that opportunity: when one character is hurt, another can/may emote to make the first feel better. The TV show rarely allows that, but in fanfiction, there are no rules. ;D

For those of us who don't write slash (I will read it sometimes, but I won't write it. That's just me.), h/c allows caring to be expressed.

[happyshep]

...but I don't really agree with the idea that men can't form bonding relationships "between equals" in the real world. I know plenty of men who do.

But unless they were homosexual I guess their interactions still generally differ from what women tend to fantasize about.

I think you're exactly right dchann.

[mpbrennan]

Men generally value stoicism. Women tend to place more emphasis on expressing emotions as essential to healthy relationships. I think some of this leaks into fic--especially hurt/comfort--mostly out of necessity. That communication is often at the heart of h/c fic. So, we . . . tweak our fictional men just a little.

In terms of slash, it may be an overgeneralization to say that it's all about "ideal bonding." Yes, many stories focus on this, as do many het stories, but there are also many stories in which slash relationships turn destructive--where men can be abusive, manipulative, or neglectful in relationships with other men. I think both types of slash stem from the same ideal of equal love. Some stories communicate this by painting an ideal relationship while others suggest it by showcasing the flaws in less healthy relationships.

[E Fish]

But unless they were homosexual I guess their interactions still generally differ from what women tend to fantasize about.

I would disagree, but I guess I don't read a whole lot of fanfiction (none outside NCIS) and I don't tend to fantasize about male relationships. The reason it works in the H/C genre is, I think, because of the extremity of the experiences which force people into more expressive modes of communication. I suppose also that I know men who are different from this norm you keep talking about. My father doesn't gush much but he's more than willing to discuss things when it is necessary. My brothers, well some of them, are quite open...and quite heterosexual. Men might be, in general, less expressive, but this stereotype of the strong silent male is just that, a stereotype that people buy into (some men even buy into it as the essence of being male).

What I think bothers me most about the discussion is that it assumes that there can only be romantic love between men that is a realistic expressive of affection...and that simply is not true. Filial love, familial love, platonic love between friends...men have these things, but they are not necessarily expressed as overtly. I myself am a woman and I don't go around telling people how much I like them, giving hugs, being "expressive" or demonstrative...but that doesn't mean I feel none of those things.

Okay, sorry about the tangent. It just happened to hit on one of my fanfiction pet peeves.

[stealthdragon]

My personal opinion is that it's not "totally" about writing the ideal man (because most characters, male or female, will end up being idealized in some way.) I think it comes down to one of three things for an author:

1. The ideal situation. The author wants a particular reaction from the characters. They want a particular result, and will either create the right situation to get that result (Ex. torture in order to get a story about overcoming torture) or alter the character (Ex. Making them more emotionally open than they actually are.)

I've found the latter - altering the character - particularly frustrating to read in the SGA fandom. The characters of Sheppard and McKay are not the touchy/feely, emotionally-open type. In fact, for Sheppard to open up emotionally is like having teeth pulled for him. McKay isn't exactly tactful and has admitted that he's not good with people. So when even a skilled author has Sheppard being cuddly, or Rodney being the emotional answer-man, it'll sometimes throw me right out of a story. But it all comes down to the situation - what came before to lead them to this point of doing what they don't normally do - and whether or not that situation makes it believable. As well as how the characters reactions are handled; if the characters remain in character. Sometimes it's believable, sometimes it isn't.

2. Having no clue how to write men, let alone existing characters. Not to pick completely on teenage writers, but this does tend to show up more in works by younger writers. I've read many stories where the male characters are written more as teenage girls, with much hugging, touching, sobbing, hand-holding and confessing emotional pain and issues without hesitation. That's not to say some men would never do these things. But depending on the characters, it's incredibly jarring and, yes, at times a little nauseating, if it's just not who the characters are, no matter the situation.

3. A lack of tolerance for the natural male. I've run into this quite a bit in the SGA fandom. Sheppard flirts with a female character and, suddenly, several viewers are calling for his head. I recall someone once wishing the character castrated. Why? Because he flirted. Not because he slept with someone, not because he was being grossly sexist, but because he was being a typical guy. So here, I think, is where writing the ideal man comes into play; not so much writing the ideal male alone but also writing a male that is tolerable to those you can't stand a guy being a guy.

I've also become aware of a growing attitude that the only way anyone can have a truly emotional relationship is if it becomes a romantic/sexual one. That people, men especially, cannot express platonic caring for each other. Any caring expressed means they are in love. I agree with E Fish - this isn't true. There can be caring within friendship, and without having to alter who the characters are. It's what I enjoy most about writing Sheppard and McKay friendships - having them express that caring for each other while still letting them be who they are. They're not good at it, but they try, and for me it makes the story both amusing and incredibly sweet.

[happyshep]

Then here's my teenage naivity coming through again. Thank you for steering me on the right track.

I would disagree, but I guess I don't read a whole lot of fanfiction (none outside NCIS) and I don't tend to fantasize about male relationships. - E Fish

Neither do I, so I think to understand this subject I've been focusing on the stereotype which Stealthdragon just described:

Not to pick completely on teenage writers, but this does tend to show up more in works by younger writers. I've read many stories where the male characters are written more as teenage girls, with much hugging, touching, sobbing, hand-holding and confessing emotional pain and issues without hesitation. - stealthdragon

I saw so much of this in the Lord of the Rings fandom between Aragorn/Legolas that I assumed most of the genre was like this, and I evidently haven't had enough exposure to fanfiction in general to understand that these kinds of stories should not be misinterpreted to represent the whole.

Can we draw any conclusions about the difference in values between young teens and older writers?
Perhaps while teenagers fantasize about marriage and partnership "...they are certain that their future holds only ongoing love and appreciation for each other. They do not expect to have conflicts or to experience doubt, jealousy, frustration, anger and disappointment. However, the reality is that those emotions will inevitably arise"(Source). Meanwhile older, wiser writers have a more realistic view and understanding of relationships and tend to depict them with more maturity in their works.
Do you think this is correct?

[E Fish]

I could agree with that. I tend to avoid most of the romance stories because I've never liked reading romances (not even when I was a teenager!), but the few that I've gone into show a lamentable lack of subtlety. I find that they fight and fight and hate each other...and then, suddenly realize that they are meant to be because of...whatever. I've never been in love myself, but I rather doubt that's how it works. I watch my parents, my elder siblings (who have been married since I was ten years old) and I see compromise. I see disagreements, and I see love shown not through passionate acts (for one thing...ew. Don't let your younger sister see that ) but through affection and a desire to make things work.

I suppose you could generalize that teens are the more likely to depict those silly romances, but there are some younger writers on NFA who actually do write with subtlety. It's all a matter of personal preference. Perhaps certain fandoms attract more or less of a type of writing. ...although I don't think NCIS is immune, based on the stories I see on ff.net.

[mpbrennan]

I would definitely agree that certain fandoms attract certain types of authors. The "Twilight" fandom, in particular, takes a lot of flak for this, maybe because there's such a canon emphasis on idealized romantic relationships.

[stealthdragon]

I agree, but to an extent. I think both younger and older writers are guilty of aiming for more idealize romances, friendships and characters. Depending on the level of the author's writing expertise, older writers can be just as prone to seeing love - platonic or romantic - as the be all, end all to everything. Romantic love becomes the solution to all physical and emotional problems in the story.

But I think that, with older writers, it's more about either a) personal wish-fulfillment or b) as I said in my earlier response, having a dislike for the natural man. With younger writers (mainly those in high-school and younger), wish fulfillment also plays a part, but so does experience. It's easier to write men with emotional responses more in-common with women because it's what the younger writer knows. I speak from experience. I didn't write romance, but my stories and characters were just as ideal (and the male characters not as "male" as they should have been). I was more focused on wish fulfillment than on the plot. For that reason, my stories never went anywhere, and the only stories finished were those written for classes.

That's definitely not to say that if the story is written by someone in highschool, it's going to be terrible I've been pleasantly surprised after reading a well-written fic to discover that it was written by a teenager. And shocked to discover a poorly written fic was written by an adult.